Leading Amidst Chaos: A Journey into Catalytic Leadership with William Attaway

Jeff Kikel: 00:00:00

Hello, Freedom Nation. It's Jeff here once again with another episode of The Freedom nation podcast. I am so excited to have William AdAway on today, William started his career out in business and then eventually transitioned into ministry started working for his local church. And throughout that process, he began to coach leaders and build his skill sets in coaching leaders. He lives in the Washington DC area. So he spent a lot of time coaching leaders and government and the military, and a lot of government contractors in the DC area. And about five years ago, he actually had his Freedom Day, where he actually began to transition to an entrepreneurial role and build a business practice around coaching business leaders. And that's what he does today. But he's one of those people who actually continues to have his day job. He loved what he was doing, he loves, still loves what he's doing. So he does a dual role. He also has a new book that's out called catalytic or catalytic leadership. And we'll talk a little bit about that. So join us on the show are looking forward to seeing you on there.

FN Intro/Outro: 00:01:21

Welcome to the Freedom Nation podcast with Jeff Kikel. On this show, Jeff shares his expertise in financial and retirement planning from a different perspective. Planning for Your Freedom Day, which is the first day that you wake up and have enough income or assets and do not have to go to work that day. Learn how to calculate what you need, how to generate income sources, and listen to interviews from others who've done it themselves, get ready to experience your own Freedom Day.

Jeff Kikel: 00:01:55

Hello, Freedom Nation. Welcome to the show today. And I am super excited to have William Attaway on Williams been a pastor for many years and really started to transition his life or to include in his life coaching for leaders, and helping them to become a catalyst in their businesses and become better leaders. He's got a new book out that we'll discuss, and welcome to the show my friend, Jeff, thanks

William Attaway: 00:02:25

So much for having me. It's really an honor to be here.

Jeff Kikel: 00:02:27

I'm so glad to have you on today. Looking forward to further discussion, we got the time to talk before the show. But to really get into it. Let's kick off with your story. How did you get to where you're at today,

William Attaway: 00:02:40

I started in high school working in a pharmacy and really was captured by that thought this is a great way to serve other people to help them in a practical way. And so I went to college as a pre pharmacy major got into my second year hit organic chemistry, which is designed to wash out people who don't need to go any farther. And you know what it works, because that was the endpoint for me, I discovered how much I really hate chemistry. So I said, I'm going to pivot and do something different. I moved into business into the corporate world, and work there for a number of years before I pivoted again, into the nonprofit sector working in the church. And I've been working in the local church now for just over 26 years, really, but I have an entrepreneurial streak in me, it's always been there. My grandfather started his own business, my dad started his own business. And so it was passed down from grandfather to father to son. And so I hung out my shingle, I've been coaching leaders in a variety of different contexts for over 25 years. And what I did five years ago was say, I'm going to make this very intentional part of my life, I'm going to add value to people where they are. And these days, I'm pouring into entrepreneurs and business owners, agency owners, who are stuck who feel like they they built something. But what got him here like Marshall Goldsmith says isn't going to get them where they really want to go. They're overwhelmed, they're overworked. And they don't know what to do next. And that's where I come in.

Jeff Kikel: 00:04:04

Excellent, very good. Let's talk a little bit about what they you started to are, you've been in the church for many years. And you made that pivot what kind of made you make that kind of entrepreneurial pivot in your life.

William Attaway: 00:04:19

When you work in a church, it's very common, I find it to surround yourself with people who think like you do and act like you do and talk like you do. And in so doing, you really limit your influence, you limit your exposure and your ability to help other people because you're staying in one spot. And I really believe that God has put something in me that is going to help other people and I don't think any experience in your life is ever wasted. And so what I have been able to do with through catalytic leadership, the company that I started, is to coach and help leaders to develop where they are all around the world. And that's something that's outside of my work that I do with the local churches. I still serve they're still in invest there. But what I do think catalytic is very different. Because I'm connecting with people where they are. And I'm helping them to do something that is in their heart to achieve, they want to grow, they want to get better, they want to be more intentional. They just don't know how they need somebody to come alongside them, and help them see what they can't see. It's really hard to see the whole picture when you're in the frame.

Jeff Kikel: 00:05:21

Oh, yeah. Let's say that so many people are sitting in there fighting alligators every day. And they can't see outside the alligator pit to figure out okay, what's the next step for me? How am I going to get myself to that next step? Or how do I get myself out of there, and we've got very similar paths, I work with a lot of business owners that trying to help them figure out where the exit is. And a lot of those cases, they just can't see towards the end, or they look at that light at the end of the tunnel. And it's just another oncoming train, that's going to run them over at that point. So they really need someone to help them figure out okay, what is the end look like? There is an end and it's there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not that oncoming train. But how are you going to get yourself there? Exactly. Now, was the stuff that you do? Is it really created out of your previous work? Or did you go out and get coaching training in this area?

William Attaway: 00:06:15

Yes, I've been trained as a coach, and I've been working in that field for a long time, it does come out of my own experience my own journey, what I do is I provide the coaching that I wish I had early on, somebody who's going to help you to see the things that you can't see, but who's also going to help you avoid the ditches. So often we're driving down the road, we're driving on our journey. And all of a sudden, we find ourselves in a ditch. And we don't know exactly what happened, but oh, okay, and you finally get yourself out and you get back on the road, and then you hit another ditch. If I can learn from the ditches of other people, and avoid some of those ditches, that's going to help me go farther. If I can help other people to avoid the ditches that I've watched, the hundreds of leaders that I've coached, as well as my own ditches that I've driven into, if I can help them to avoid those, they're going to go even farther. Absolutely. So when you start to think about some of the more common ditches that people drive into, what are some of the ones you see most often from leaders that are out there, I think the three that I see most often are they get so scattered, because they're reacting to everything that's happening in their business and in their life. They're just constantly in reaction mode, when you're just reacting, you're not able to focus. And what I do at the very beginning is help them to establish what I call clear minded focus, we're going to gain clarity around where you are, we're going to gain clarity around who you are. And we're going to gain clarity around where you want to be. Once we establish those three, then it's far easier to build the bridge from here to there. Too often gaining clarity around those three things, though, and something most leaders have never done. Most business owners have never stopped to do that work. That's a big one. If you're constantly reacting and never stopping to do the deeper work, you're never going to get there. That's huge. A second one has to do with the chaos that is part of owning your own business. And so often a business owner is just really trying to control the chaos. But too often they become a victim of it. They stepped out of them nine to five, they stepped out of the cubicle to do their own thing. But what they ended up doing was trading a 4045 or 50 hour week for an 80 hour, they traded the chaos of the corporate environment. Now for the uncontrolled chaos of something that they're trying to wrap their arms around, I think there's a better way. And what I do is help them find a place of calm control in the middle of that. And from that place you can lead instead of just react. The third challenge that I see so often is that leaders, no matter what their track is, even with those who have found great success and have built six and seven and eight figure businesses are found there is often a severe lack of confidence. They struggle with impostor syndrome, they struggle with this idea of can I really should I really what if they figure out I'm not really that's very real. Yeah. And I help them understand how you build confidence where it comes from, what it means for it to be healthy, what it means for it to be unhealthy, and how to lead from a place of confidence.

Jeff Kikel: 00:09:20

But it's amazing what that third one, how people that are have been in leadership positions for years. I find that and I come across that so many times that feeling of impostor syndrome, oh, we can't do this new thing in our business because I don't know enough about it. To do that. Okay, just be confident in your abilities to figure it out. Yeah, exactly. It's probably the biggest challenge I have in the consulting practice of doing Exit Planning, consulting. It's one of the biggest ones that I have is people it'll get moving. You get them started moving down the path and then all of a sudden it just stops and you As the excuse is always, Oh, I'm so busy, I don't have time to do this. But you dig down a little bit more. And it really is that oh my god, I'm going down into the unknown. I don't know what this is going to be, I don't know who I'm going to be. If I sold my business, I don't know who I'm going to be and everything else. So that it's interesting, the parallels there. So if you're somebody that is out there in a leadership position, certainly coming to you is a good source of that. But what are some of the things that someone that is maybe not engaged with you right now? What are some of the tools that they can use to help themselves first and get rolling?

William Attaway: 00:10:40

Like, the first thing I would say is understand that you don't know what you don't know yet. Okay. It's really easy to lose sight of that. And if you're feeling this feeling like the Earth is shifting, and things are moving, and you're not sure where to plant your feet, that's a good indicator that this is a time when you can spend some very intentional focused effort learning. There has never been more resources for learning podcasts like this one, like the podcast that I host, the catalytic leadership podcast. The book that I wrote, This captures learnings that I have captured from the clients that I've coached for 25 plus years, as well as from my own journey, there are so many resources that are available, avail yourself of them, be intentional about that, say, I'm gonna spend 1520 3045 minutes every day, investing in myself in my own development, that is key. And that you will never regret time that you spent developing yourself.

Jeff Kikel: 00:11:37

And I think you make the point perfectly, they're set aside 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour of your day. And once again, I get the excuse all the time of oh, I don't have any time, we all have the same 166 hours. And we might work. Okay, let's say you're a workaholic, you might work 60 hours a week, or 70 hours a week, right? You sleep, let's call it 40 or 50 hours a week, you still got time left over in that 166 hours to put in seven hours a week of times developing yourself reading, just reading anything that can help you to become a better leader to become a better person, whether it's getting closer to God or whatever it is just spending that time where you're focused on yourself instead of everything else, I think is huge.

William Attaway: 00:12:27

I agree completely when people tell me that they're too busy that they don't have time. My response is typically in his ways I can say it. I think you're choosing not to make the time. Yeah.

Jeff Kikel: 00:12:38

Yeah, that's absolutely right. So when somebody starts to work with you, what's the process typically, like?

William Attaway: 00:12:44

The first thing that I do with new clients in the onboarding process is we discover what I call their wiring, every leader is wired a little bit differently. Sure. And so often, when we begin as a leader, we're just trying to catch our footing, we're just trying to figure out where we are. And so many of us will begin by copying other leaders copying their style, their leadership methods, sometimes even the way they talk and dress that's not uncommon. If when you're at the beginning of your journey, the problem over time is that's not you. That's them. And so ultimately, what you're going to become is a bad copy of a great leader. Yeah, that's not helpful. What I want them to do is understand their own wiring. And so through several assessments that I use, we're going to put together a wiring diagram that a leader can say, Okay, this is who I am and how I'm wired. Now, what does it look like to lead from that? What does it look like to lead as that? That's where we begin because this is part of understanding who you are your wiring, then we're going to define where you are, we're going to define what it is, let's define reality. And extra pre says, let's define reality as it is not as we wish it to step. Well, if we knew that's going to give us a benchmark. Now, let's paint the picture of where you want to be. Right? What are the things that we're struggling with currently, that you want to overcome? What are the breakthroughs that you need? That's going to help us paint a picture of there, and then it's just a matter of building that road from here to there. And that's what I do. And I come alongside the leaders and I work with them and coach them as we go to benchmark this progress. Because leadership is like any other skill, it can be measured. So often we don't we say, Oh, it's a soft skill. It can't be measured. You're just choosing not to measure it.

Jeff Kikel: 00:14:24

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. So when you look at these leaders, do they typically spend years with you? Do they spend just like a short period of time? What's your typical engagement with

William Attaway: 00:14:35

leadership? Typically, between six and 12 months for most of my clients, I do have clients that have been with me for years, because they want somebody to continue to walk with them. They want a resource that they can continue to tap into. With my clients. They have access to me via email and via text, and sometimes between sessions okay, I'm struggling with this right now just came out of a meeting helped me think through this and I'm available to help them do that. Unless I'm with another client. Of course, the goal here is for them to have a resource, a phone a friend, if you will, that they can say, okay, hey, help me navigate. Even beyond the from here to there pathway helped me to navigate the ever present struggles that are part of owning a business that are part of running an agency that are part of leading other people who are not all like me help. That's where I come in.

Jeff Kikel: 00:15:25

Love it. So you've got a new book that's out called catalytic leadership. Tell us a little bit about the book, some of the things that you help people with in there.

William Attaway: 00:15:35

My goal with the book was to write it in such a way that it feels like a conversation that I'm having with you across a coffee table, I were just sitting having coffee chatting, it's I read it in a very conversational style. Because I want people to understand that the principles, the keys that I lay out in the book, these are 12 principles that I believe have been pretty consistent themes through so many of the coaching conversations I've had over these decades, with other people and with myself, as I've been navigating leadership, both in the business environment, and in the nonprofit church environment. These are different places. But no matter where you lead, whether it's in the military, whether it's in the government, whether it's in the educational settings, or a solopreneur, or a C suite leader, these principles hold true. So what I've done is captured 12 of these that I think will help leaders to take their next step, something that they're struggling with. But it begins with your mindset, it begins with a choice that you're going to make before you're in the situation. And so that's what the book is about. It's capturing those lessons and making them accessible. So leaders, no matter their context can apply them.

Jeff Kikel: 00:16:41

Love it, love it. Now, where's your book available?

William Attaway: 00:16:45

You can get it on Amazon, really, most places books are sold that's in paperbacks, and audiobooks and Kindle. The goal was to make it again accessible, no matter what your style is. And people prefer to listen to a book. Some people prefer digital and some people prefer paper. So we wanted to make it accessible for everyone. Yeah,

Jeff Kikel: 00:16:59

exactly. And some people that I'm one that I have to hear it and hear it, see it, you know, look at it, go through it, and all that in electronic form. In my hand, everything else, I often buy three books, in a lot of those cases, just so that I've got it from all the different directions, especially one where I've gotten a lot of good information from those are ones I want to own a lot of times and hold my hand. Absolutely. So what's next for you what's on the next few years down the road for you and your business? My goal

William Attaway: 00:17:31

Is to continue to help leaders, that's really what I'm focused on is continuing to invest in them. I spend a lot of time these days in the agency space for agency owners and entrepreneurs. Because they so often struggle with they're really good at something and providing a product or a service or with SAS or whatever it is that they're involved in. And they're really good at doing that. And as they find success and begin to scale, they have to hire people to help them with fulfillment, then one day they look around the table virtually or in person and realize that people are looking to them to lead. So often, the response to that is I didn't sign up for that I'm really good at this thing. I didn't sign up for that. And so they're going to go one of two ways. They're either going to abdicate the leadership role, and they're going to try to delegate it to somebody else, or they're going to say we'll just be a flat organization and won't have a leader that doesn't work well. Or they're going to try to do it on their own. And what I find they're going to do is they're going to hit every ditch possible on that road. What I want to do is come alongside them and help them not hit those ditches. I want to help them learn to lead in a healthy way. That's going to keep them from trying to do everything themselves, making every mistake themselves. Help them learn to find the freedom that comes from owning your business, hiring a team to help you fulfill and learning that you don't have to do everything yourself, in fact, is so much better when you don't.

Jeff Kikel: 00:18:57

You're basically the leadership equivalent of the bumpers and bowling. He's just out in the middle in the middle. I love that. That's right. All right, let's let's transition here to the Fast Five questions, because I can't wait to hear from you on these. So first one, you wake up in the morning, business is gone. You have 500 bucks in your pocket a laptop computer, place to live food and clothing. What are you going to do first?

William Attaway: 00:19:30

I'm gonna set up a LinkedIn profile to answer. And I think the reason for that is if it's not self evident, because I believe that's where so many of the connections that I make are, this is where I meet people. This is where I connect with them. This is how I'm learning to add value to them through the LinkedIn newsletter that I've produced the live events that I host. These are ways that I can add value to people and help them to grow and get better whether they're ever a client of mine or not. I can continue to add value and help them to be intense to know and grow, and that's such a part of who I am. So that would be the first thing I would do so that I can love it and ramp that right back up

Jeff Kikel: 00:20:06

And the cost is absolutely nothing

William Attaway: 00:20:10

In that wonderful.

Jeff Kikel: 00:20:11

That is a beautiful thing. All right, what's the biggest business mistake you've ever made?

William Attaway: 00:20:17

Waiting too long to hire a business coach. There's an epidemic that is prevalent among entrepreneurs. That because we are good in one area, we think we're good in other areas. And that is not always the case. I'm no different than anyone else. I need people to help me see what I can't see. And this is why I've had a coach for many years. And I waited way too long to hire somebody to help me with the business side. That was a huge mistake.

Jeff Kikel: 00:20:43

Yeah. And I think that's one of those ones that making a small investment at the beginning, you don't need a full on several $1,000 A month business coach at the beginning. But if you can just hire somebody that can be that it has been there before. I always I look at coaches and I look at mentors and sometimes hiring a mentor to somebody, it's actively involved in the process, having a coach that can help you with making you a better you, I think is one piece of it. And then having somebody that's a mentor that you can hire and say, Hey, whether it's I'm buying you lunch once a month to be able to pick your brain or I'll pay you X amount of time for your time. And having somebody that is actively involved in that business that you're in, I think is another huge Pro. So it's not always just one coach, it could be multiple, depending on which version at the time 100% Love it. What's a good book that you would recommend for our audience.

William Attaway: 00:21:35

Getting Things Done by David Allen is one that I recommend often I first read that book almost 20 years ago, and he completely revolutionized my processes for how I operate. My productivity changed drastically. After I read and implemented what I learned in that book, this the book I still read every couple of years. Again, I find new things in it because I'm in a different season. Yeah, I recommend that book all the time. Because if you want truly to find that place of calm control what David Allen calls a month like water, that is the best tool I know.

Jeff Kikel: 00:22:10

I love it. It sounds like me with the four hour workweek. I've probably read that book twice a year for the last 16 years, however long it's been published. And it seems every time I get the exact same thing. I read it again. And I'm like, Oh, I don't even remember this the first time I wrote the book because it now it's something that applies in my life. And you know, it's got me, oh, this is something new that I haven't thought about VR I haven't put into place. So yeah, it sounds great books like that. But yeah, I'm not familiar with that one. So I'll have to go and dig into that one a little bit. Because it sounds like it's another one to put on the annual reading list. It's well worth your time. What's a tool that you use in your business every day that you'd recommend to our audience.

William Attaway: 00:22:54

It's one that I know a lot of people use, but I call it my digital brain. And that's Evernote. I keep Evernote open in one quadrant have one of my monitors all the time. This is where I keep my Getting Things Done system from the book. And this is where I capture ideas. This is where this is a repository of articles that I read that I'll notate that this is where I keep ideas for book chapters, what I'm going to write are articles that have been right. This really is the repository, the reference section of my brain. And so that's something I use every day all day long. But it would be a little bit of a mess if all of a sudden Evernote went away.

Jeff Kikel: 00:23:31

I'm right there with you. As we were talking before this thing, and mine is I think it's on every device that I own to Yes, it's on there because I want to access it wherever I'm at most cases. Final question, what is your definition of freedom?

William Attaway: 00:23:46

That's such a great question. And I think I would say this. So often we talk about freedom as freedom from something, freedom from the grind, freedom from hustle culture, freedom from the cubicle farms, and the long commutes and all of those things. And that can be important. But I prefer to think about freedom in a different way. I want to think about freedom to learn about what am I aiming for? What do I want, not what I'm trying to get away from? What am I aiming myself toward is freedom to so when I think about freedom, I think about freedom to serve other people freedom to help them and empower them and equip them no matter where they are, no matter where I am. So there's the location independence, right? There's the pieces and so often we talk about the financial freedom, the location, freedom, the freedom from having to commute and all those things. Those are wonderful things to be free from but then what what are you going to be free to do so I would just challenge your listeners. If you've only been focused on what you want to be free from Spin that just a little bit. Think about what you want to be free to

Jeff Kikel: 00:24:51

Do on that I can't explain it any better. But it's one of the as I started to look at our Freedom Day constant And the principles that I teach. So many of these movements that are out there are focused on financial independence. Okay, great, that's fine. So you give up a lot of your life, or you live like a popper for many years, and then all of a sudden, you're free. But then what are you free to do? And you've got to have something that you're working towards always otherwise, you'll stagnate and you lose purpose in your life. So I wonderful answer one of the best answers I've heard this year, when it comes to that. So thank you for that. William, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way,

William Attaway: 00:25:34

The best way to connect with me is LinkedIn. Honestly, that's where I spend a lot of time. That's where I share the things that I'm currently learning. I've got a newsletter there people can subscribe to for free, do live events from time to time, where I share things that I think will be helpful and beneficial. Whether you engage with me as a client or not, I want to help you to grow, I want to help you to get better. So connect with me on LinkedIn.

Jeff Kikel: 00:25:56

Love it, we'll put your LinkedIn profile link in the show notes page, so people can find you. And look forward to keeping up the relationship down the road, my friend, thank you for being absolutely,

William Attaway: 00:26:08

Jeff. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Kikel: 00:26:10

Oh, you're so welcome. And folks, make sure you connect with William on LinkedIn. And always make sure you subscribe to our channel if you haven't already. We put these shows out twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays. However, we have been doing some other shows on our YouTube channel as well. So make sure that you are subscribed to all of our channels. Were sharing information in anticipation of the Freedom Day book. We're about three weeks out at this point. So make sure that you are subscribed to that next week, we'll be offering a lower price on the launch of the book. So make sure that you keep listening to the channels so that you get that opportunity to get a pre ordered copy of the book.